Well Known Charismatic Christian Leaders: Dr Martyn Lloyd Jones on Demon Possession

The occasion, a conference of the Christian Medical Fellowship.

The year,  1971.

The speaker,  Doctor Martyn Lloyd Jones.

The session,  Questions and Answers on Healing and Demon Possession

The following question is posed:

While not denying that devil possession sometimes occurs, are we not in danger of thinking that phenomena of this sort constitute the chief attack by the Devil upon the church and the work of God, and are forgetting that his main evil work is and always has been to make men (1) to doubt and (2) to disobey God?  May it not be that dramatic phenomena like devil possession are the Devil’s own way of distracting our attention from his main but much more subtle attack?

A good question?  Many would nod at the premise of the question, which almost answers itself does it not?

This audio should be listened to in its entirety, though the question is posed in the 20^th minute.  The talk is entitled “Questions and Answers on Healing and Demon Possession”

For those who want to read the transcript of the answer, I reproduce it below:

Yes.  That’s very typical if I may say so.  And I won’t say of whom!  But it is very typical!  [laughter].  I’m almost enough of a higher critic to say who sponsored that question originally, but I’m not going to speculate, I don’t believe in this.

Do you see what’s happening?  Are we not in danger?  Well the answer to that is, are we?  Are you people finding devils in everybody?  I don’t think you are.  What this question is saying is this.  Now this has been very wrong in this conference to call so much attention to devil possession.  People will be forgetting the main work of the Devil.  And so, you see, you don’t consider devil possession at all.  And you go on sending people who are devil-possessed into mental hospitals and they get drug treatments and so on and they are no better, and sometimes worse, and the problem goes on.

No, this is a very ill-conceived question.  I pointed out in one of the previous sessions that there are people go to excess about this, as we do with most matters.  But, you see, the answer to excess is not to do anything at all, which is what this question is obviously suggesting.  That we shouldn’t talk about this.  “There’s grave danger here.  Mustn’t do this, otherwise we’ll be doing nothing else and the Devil’s going to get a great advantage.”  No!  I think the Devil’s going to get a great advantage by bringing in devil-possession en masse, and we are not going to face it or consider it because of this kind of attitude.  I think this is very wrong indeed, it is not ‘either or’.

We all know the main business of the Devil.  But does that mean that he doesn’t do this in addition?  Does it mean that he isn’t doing this at this present time in a very particular manner?  For the reason that I give.  That the Christian influence is on the wane.  And in any case we know what happens in other countries abroad.  I commend to the writer of this question that he or she or both [laughter] immediately proceed to buy that booklet to which I referred by the Overseas Missionary Fellowship, “Roaring Lion”.  And there they will discover the dangers that confront the missionary or the minister in this country or indeed anybody – a doctor in particular – who is ignorant of this matter of devil or demon possession.  I reject the whole implication of that.

I myself went out of my way to warn against running off, people do, it doesn’t matter what thing is mentioned in the Christian realm, somebody is always going to take it up and rush away with it and run it to an excess and the result is the whole thing is ridiculed.  No, no.  We must take a balanced view of these things and beware of this false antithesis, this ‘either or’ which doesn’t apply here at all.  The Devil does it in both ways, in all ways.  We are not ignorant of his devices, and I feel that attention needs to be called today in this country particularly to this aspect of which we haven’t seen much in the past, but which we are seeing more and more at the present time.

This was followed up by another question, as follows:

The remaining questions are a group of four.  I’m going to read all of them through quickly because they are on the same theme so that the whole subject is covered.

One, can a Christian become demon possessed, are there clear diagnostic signs to differentiate between demon possession and various mental illnesses.

Two, could we have advice regarding guiding rules to distinguish between the areas of mental illness from demon possession.

Three, to what extent may psychotic illness be in fact a sophisticated form of demon possession or influence?  How can a doctor recognise the difference between mental illness and demon possession if there is a difference and the final one which is in three parts,

What are the basic clinical features of demon possession?  Are these fundamental features constant in different countries and cultures although the expression naturally varies, two, what is its treatment and three, what are the results of treatment?

I will not write the answer, but will leave you to listen to this one on the link indicated above.

To me, this is dynamite.  Let me spell this out:

• Doctor Martyn Lloyd Jones was a medical Doctor before he was a preacher
• He is of the Reformed Evangelical part of the church and his main calling was expository preaching of the word
• He was one of the (arguably ‘the’) most respected evangelical leader of the 20^th Century

 In other words, he is no ‘lightweight’, not given to jumping on bandwagons or relying on experiences.  And as a doctor by profession, he cannot over-spiritualise every issue by saying that it is demonic.

Being in the rare position of being and experienced pastor as well as a doctor, he has had many difficult cases referred to him.  And he clearly states that he has frequently had to deal with the demonic in his ministry.  Including in Christians.

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I possibly need to discuss this subject further for those who are new to this subject.

In the days of Jesus and the early apostles, the New Testament refers to people who experience physical healing.  But it also talks about people who are delivered from demons.  And all of Jesus' disciples were trained in healing and deliverance from demons.

And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Mark 16:17-18

In order to (1) bring people to Christ (2) Demonstrate the power of the Gospel (3) Bring in the Kingdom of God on Earth and (4) help people overcome untold suffering, I believe that we can’t bury our heads in the sand!  We need to be equipped to deal with these things, and frankly, we’re not.  It means that if a problem has a demonic root, surely we should be able to deal with it effectively.

I find it interesting that every diocese within the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of England has a designated exorcist to deal with phenomena such as people disturbed by demons, hauntings, poltergeists, buildings with creepy presences and so on.  They don’t employ these people, I believe, because they are simply being superstitious and weird.  They do it because there is a constant trickle of people coming forward asking for help with these things.  I once heard a radio interview with a couple of very well-spoken Anglican exorcists who matter-of-factly explained how they successfully dealt with a range of phenomena in the Name of Jesus.  I’d love to have a recording of it, but I haven’t.

But again, nether of these denominations hold any water with a large number of evangelical Christians.

There are evangelical Christians who will not give Pentecostals or Charismatics the time of day.  So anything they say about:

• Healing miracles
• Baptism in Holy Spirit
• Gifts of the Spirit
• Demonisation*

 …will be instantly dismissed.  But I find it interesting that Doctor Martyn Lloyd Jones brings this issue to the attention of his own constituency.
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*It is not my purpose here to expound the biblical teaching on the subject of how demons affect people, including believers in Christ.  It is a big subject that I am not qualified to comment on with much authority.  However, I will say that I prefer the term 'demonised' to 'demon-possessed'.  Traditional translations of the Bible prefer the latter term, yet in modern English it carries the connotation of being possessed by i.e. fully owned and controlled by a demon.  Dr Martyn Lloyd Jones, speaking in the early 1970s and the best known writer at this time on the subject, the Lutheran Pastor Kurt Koch, would say 'Demon-possessed'.  No Christian can be fully controlled by a demon in this way.  And yet, I believe (and Lloyd Jones would concur) that Christians can be affected, oppressed, disturbed, weakened by demons.  Hence, I prefer to used the term 'demonised', which is preferred by many of today's writers on the subject, and in my view it better resembles the New Testament Greek term.

Well Known Charismatic Christian Leaders: Dr Martyn Lloyd Jones on Joy in the Holy Spirit

Older Evangelicals Christians in Britain will need no introduction to Dr Martyn Lloyd Jones.  Originating from South Wales, following Campbell Morgan at Westminster Chapel in London, he was arguably the most influential Christian leader in the 20th Century.

Not only did he write numerous books, for example:

• A 12 Volume commentry on Romans
• A 5 Volume commentry on 1John
• A 2 Volume commentry on the Sermon on the Mount
• 'Preaching and Preachers', possibly his most influential book

More than this, however, he founded the Publishers 'Banner of Truth'.

A far more adequate introduction can be read in his Wikipedia entry or the introduction in the MLJ Trust website which includes some videos.

His credentials as a preacher from the Reformed tradition who had an uncompromisingly high view of scripture and a great legacythrough his teaching and writing are there for all to see.

I want to mention a few things now in relation to his views on issues of interest to Charismatics.

1. Between the years 1955 and 1968, Lloyd Jones taught through the Book of Romans.  Spanning Chapters 1 to 14, there are 366 sermons on the Epistle.  Due to an illness from which he retired from pastoral ministry, he only reached as far as Chapter 14:17.  I will follow with the Doctor's own words on this:

There is another thing to be said, and I am more concerned about this at present.  The interruption of my ministry had a message for me.  I was at Romans 14:17.  I had dealt with ‘righteousness’, with ‘peace’ on March 1st, and there I was stopped.  I was not allowed to deal with ‘joy in the Holy Ghost’.  I have the feeling that this was not accidental.  God intervened and I could suggest a reason why.  I was able to deal with righteousness and peace (I had fleeting experiences of it), but the third thing is the profoundest of all.  Why was I not allowed to deal with it?  Because I knew something, but not enough about it.  ‘I want you to speak with greater authority on this,’ God said.

"Here is what I would put before you.  For six months, until September, I did not preach at all.  For four months I have had the most valuable experience of being a listener.  My general impression is that most of our services are terribly depressing!  I am amazed people still go to church; most who go are female and over the age of forty.  The note missing is ‘joy in the Holy Ghost’.  There is nothing in these services to make a stranger feel that he is missing something by not being there.  It is as though there is a weight upon us and the minister, feeling this, thinks he must be short.  So the people come together in order to depart!  Speaking generally, I think it is true to say this and there is little difference in this respect in evangelical churches.

It is a great thing to be a listener.  You want something for your soul.  You want help.  I don’t want a ‘great sermon’.  I want to feel the presence of the God I am worshipping and to know that I am considering some great and glorious subject.  If I do get this, I do not care how poor the sermon is.

I suggest to you that our greatest danger is professionalism.  We do not stop sufficiently frequently to ask, ‘What are we really doing?’  There is the danger of just facing a text and treating it as an end in itself with a strange detachment.  It is all intellectual.  Nor should our preaching be just emotional, or only to the conscience.  Far too often it is one or other of these things.  There is no life, no power!  We of all people ought to have it.  Joy and power are intimately related.  One without the other is spurious."

So there we have it.  Britain's foremost Reformed Evangelical leader of the last century admits that there is a lackof joy in the Holy Spirit in his own life and in the churches.  To me, this is an incredible admission.

He later dealt with the subject of joy in the Holy Spirit in his book 'Joy Unspeakable', published posthumously in 1984.

I need to say here that he did not share the Pentecostal understanding of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.  He put his views into a more objective and Calvinistic framework.  However, he did say that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a separate experience from conversion and is something that the church needs in order to experience revival.

I am going to finish here with some fascinating thoughts by John Piper on Lloyd Jones.  If you enjoyed reading this blog post, the following is solid gold, a treat to read, but better still if you listen to the audio version at the top of the page.

I have more to say on Doctor Martyn Lloyd Jones, but I will leave this until next time.

Back to the Gospel 5: The Preaching Workshop

A while ago, I attended preaching workshop. A number of young aspiring leaders were there. 'Workshops' involve doing something. So I was looking forward to seeing what would happen. Were we going to preach? And what was meant by preaching here? Were we going to hit the town and share the gospel with passers by?

I was slightly disappointed, but not really surprised by what actually happened. The speaker quoted extensively from two great books:

- Preaching and Preachers by Dr Martyn Lloyd Jones*


- I Believe in Preaching by John Stott.

I don't know how and when it has happened, but whoever began to call 'teaching' 'preaching' has done us a great disservice.

I find it breathtaking and amazing that two of our most noted Christian leaders* have written entire books on 'preaching', which are regarded as classics, taking it to mean speaking from church pulpits. Didn't they even bother to look the word up?

I am not just being picky here. This is a serious error. It means that church leaders can kid themselves that they are doing the work of the Gospel by preparing a sermon every Sunday. The truth is, when you're in that pulpit, everyone is sat listening politely in rows. Nobody heckles, shouts, interrupts – except perhaps with an 'Amen'. It is not even customary to ask questions at the end**. Few people dare to challenge you afterwards or say anything discouraging, and hopefully you will get the odd bouquet.

We live in an era when fewer people than ever go outside the walls of a church to preach even though the need is at its greatest. We should not be put off by those who do it badly - it can be done very effectively. Most people in the UK, especially the North, will not normally go into a church. The old method of taking someone to hear a preacher at church or an evangelistic crusade will not do it. It may help, but the real need today is to send people out to preach. Let me quote for another book still, 'Lectures to my Students' by CH Spurgeon, who unlike Jones and Stott, devotes a chapter to open air preaching.

No sort of defense is needed for preaching out-of-doors; but it would need very potent arguments to prove that a man had done his duty who has never preached beyond the walls of his meetinghouse. A defense is required rather for services within buildings than for worship outside of them. Apologies are certainly wanted for architects who pile up brick and stone into the skies when there is so much need for preaching rooms among poor sinners down below.... no defense whatever is wanted for using the Heavenly Father's vast audience chamber, which is in every way so well fitted for the proclamation of a Gospel so free, so full, so expansive, so sublime.

The great benefit of open-air preaching is that we get so many newcomers to hear the Gospel who otherwise would never hear it. The Gospel command is, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature," but it is so little obeyed that one would imagine that it ran thus, "Go into your own place of worship and preach the Gospel to the few creatures who will come inside."

We ought actually to go into the streets and lanes and highways, for there are lurkers in the hedges, tramps on the highways, street-walkers and lane-haunters, whom we shall never reach unless we pursue them into their own domains. Sportsmen must not stop at home and wait for the birds to come and be shot at, neither must fishermen throw their nets inside their boats and hope to take many fish. Traders go to the markets; they follow their customers and go out after business if it will not come to them; and so must we. Some of our brethren are prosing on and on to empty pews and musty hassocks, while they might be conferring lasting benefit upon hundreds by quitting the old walls for a while, and seeking living stones for Jesus.

Notes:

* I need to make it clear that I hold Dr Martyn Lloyd Jones in high regard – do read his books or listen to his sermons. I may do whole post on him in the near future. Alas, I disagree with John Stott on so many fundamental issues, and I cannot recommend him.

** Actually, in my view it should be. I may explain why one day